Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by internet_nobody on Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:42 pm

I'm confused...are these the same colour? I've found one website saying yes, and lots of papers that hint that they are...but i'm confused by the hatch rates people get from golden quail...

What ratio of golden chicks to normal chicks do you get in the average hatch?

ETA:
Must stop reading...confusion levels rising...pics of italian don't look like my birds...pics of manchurian don't look like my birds...
avatar
internet_nobody
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Female
Number of posts : 915
Age : 32
Location : Coventry
My eBay : internet_nobody
Species Kept : Japanese and Bobwhite
Registration date : 2007-09-26

View user profile http://www.emmap.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Horsley-Anarak on Fri May 16, 2008 12:09 am

Sorry dont confused know

H-A
avatar
Horsley-Anarak
Japanese Quail
Japanese Quail

Male
Number of posts : 135
Location : Surrey
Registration date : 2008-03-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Suz on Fri May 16, 2008 12:19 am

I'm pretty sure this was cleared up in another post months ago. But until the world gets together to give a colour a single name and stick to it, i'm sure this question will keep re-appearing Rolling Eyes

_________________
Welcome to Quail's Anonymous - "Hi my name is Suz and I can't stop hatching quail"

http://www.freewebs.com/aberdeenshirequail/
avatar
Suz
Admin

Female
Number of posts : 2237
Age : 46
Location : Aberdeenshire, Scotland
My eBay : spatrick658
Species Kept : Japanese, Bobwhites, Gambels & Calis
Registration date : 2007-07-11

View user profile http://www.freewebs.com/aberdeenshirequail

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by internet_nobody on Fri May 16, 2008 12:37 am

I think we've decided they're all the same, at least as far as what is available from ebay/UK breeders.

Trouble is, manchurian is supposed to be homozygous lethal, whereas the golden/italian we see in the UK is not!
avatar
internet_nobody
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Female
Number of posts : 915
Age : 32
Location : Coventry
My eBay : internet_nobody
Species Kept : Japanese and Bobwhite
Registration date : 2007-09-26

View user profile http://www.emmap.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Horsley-Anarak on Fri May 16, 2008 12:39 am

Now you have got me totally confused .

H-A
avatar
Horsley-Anarak
Japanese Quail
Japanese Quail

Male
Number of posts : 135
Location : Surrey
Registration date : 2008-03-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by internet_nobody on Fri May 16, 2008 12:47 am

Not sure where I lost you, apologies if this is patronising or not what you were confused about!

Most organisms have diploid genomes - this means we have two copies of each chromosome. Each chromosome has the "same" genes at the same position, but small mutations in each produce different effects (a different version of a gene is an allele). E.g. brown eyes vs blue eyes. If you have the same allele on each chromosome in the pair you are called "homozygous", if its a different allele then its "heterozygous".

Golden/Italian is a dominant mutation, you only need one copy of the gene to be a golden quail. If you look at scientific papers (and some books) they insist that the homozygous version of "Manchurian Golden" (two copies of the gene) means that the embryo won't develop. I couldn't find any scientific papers specifically referring to Italian Golden (hence the question).

We know that the golden/italian birds that most of us have are definitely not homozygous lethal - you don't notice any drop in fertility/hatchability breeding golden x golden. Harrie in particular proved this when her latest batch of golden x golden hatched all golden chicks (if they are heterozygous, you should get 1:4 chicks being normals).
avatar
internet_nobody
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Female
Number of posts : 915
Age : 32
Location : Coventry
My eBay : internet_nobody
Species Kept : Japanese and Bobwhite
Registration date : 2007-09-26

View user profile http://www.emmap.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Horsley-Anarak on Fri May 16, 2008 1:00 am

I thought that was still a bit of point on contention, breeding gold with gold.

Is everyone sure that there is no lethal element to this combination.

H-A

Will need to get my Biology books out again.
avatar
Horsley-Anarak
Japanese Quail
Japanese Quail

Male
Number of posts : 135
Location : Surrey
Registration date : 2008-03-04

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by andoy on Fri May 16, 2008 1:06 am

I don't think you're the only one confussed H-A.

Actually Emma, if I remember correctly Harrie combined Gold x Normal and got all Gold chicks so her Gold parents were obviously Homozygotes (or homos as I like to call them). Razz

I'm afraid it's all the Yanks fault. I swear they keep comming up with new names to flog old horses. I've read one site some time ago that described Manchurian Gold as a reddish-gold which leads me to believe it's actually not an individual genetic trait but a combination of known/existing traits. I've not seen any pictures of this colour, but I suspect it is similar in appearance to the one Suz posted last month...

http://coturnixcorneruk.forumotion.com/your-quails-f22/for-derek-example-of-light-gold-hen-t1089.htm

Bit difficult to determine without obtaining one of these birds and isolating the genetic factors. Best way is to breed against normal and back again to the original bird exhibiting the colour to see what comes out. Combinational factors will not breed true (i.e. the other factors will appear in isolation in some ofspring).
avatar
andoy
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Male
Number of posts : 916
Age : 50
Location : Harrow, NW London
My eBay : andoyolg
Species Kept : Japanese and Bobwhite
Registration date : 2008-03-13

View user profile http://andoy.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by andoy on Fri May 16, 2008 2:24 am

found these on US eBay:

Manchurian Gold
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Manchurian-golden-Coturnix-quail-hatching-eggs_W0QQitemZ200223513504QQihZ010QQcategoryZ46532QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ginger (which he also calls; Fawn, Orange, Cinnamon) -- but looks like a normal to me! Suspect
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Ginger-Orange-Japanese-Coturnix-quail-hatching-eggs_W0QQitemZ200223513289QQihZ010QQcategoryZ46532QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Not that these listings clear anything up, but I find it interesting that he doesn't mention "plain" Gold (what is sold here as Italian). So it must be an American thing to call it "Manchurian".

I wonder if the myth about lethal gene might have something to do with the drop in fertility due to inbreeding more than anything else?
avatar
andoy
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Male
Number of posts : 916
Age : 50
Location : Harrow, NW London
My eBay : andoyolg
Species Kept : Japanese and Bobwhite
Registration date : 2008-03-13

View user profile http://andoy.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Ironsun on Fri May 16, 2008 10:43 am

Hi Andoy,

In the second photo, these are the ones I call cinnamon. Even though I don't get that many of this colour, they've been around for years. I had some pre 1996. I've got two more now and they are females too. One was hatched from eggs I got from bathrooms.

Derek.
avatar
Ironsun
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Male
Number of posts : 725
Location : South Lakeland, Cumbria
My eBay : etoshastud
Registration date : 2007-07-26

View user profile http://www.quail-run.bravehost.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by rohraen on Fri May 16, 2008 11:30 am

the golds were called manchurian when i had quail 15 years ago, its only now i`m going back into quail that they seem to be called italian.

they are are same colour bird as far as i can see,

the golden is refered to as manchurian in the `atlas of quails` book too

cat
avatar
rohraen
Japanese Quail
Japanese Quail

Female
Number of posts : 132
Location : atherstone, warwickshire
Registration date : 2008-03-12

View user profile http://freewebs.com/myrabbitshed

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Suz on Fri May 16, 2008 12:00 pm

I have the Atlas of Quail book too, between that and talking to american breeders, I'm convinced gold, italians & manchurians Are all the same.

_________________
Welcome to Quail's Anonymous - "Hi my name is Suz and I can't stop hatching quail"

http://www.freewebs.com/aberdeenshirequail/
avatar
Suz
Admin

Female
Number of posts : 2237
Age : 46
Location : Aberdeenshire, Scotland
My eBay : spatrick658
Species Kept : Japanese, Bobwhites, Gambels & Calis
Registration date : 2007-07-11

View user profile http://www.freewebs.com/aberdeenshirequail

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by rohraen on Fri May 16, 2008 12:32 pm

i thought so

cat
avatar
rohraen
Japanese Quail
Japanese Quail

Female
Number of posts : 132
Location : atherstone, warwickshire
Registration date : 2008-03-12

View user profile http://freewebs.com/myrabbitshed

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by andoy on Fri May 16, 2008 12:36 pm

A rose by any other name I guess.

that's quite interesting Derek, the 2nd eBay description on the listing mentions no black markings in the adults and a gingery down on the chicks. That describes the chicks I hatched from bathrooms67 (gingery colour where you would normally expect brown/black markings)

I don't think I hatched any cinnamon from the batch you sent me, but I got quite a few gingery and chocolate type hues from bathrooms67. Unfortunately quite a few of the chicks I hatched were deformed (one quite grotesquely bad beak and no eye lids and a few with funny shaped feet). So I'm guessing he must have inbred them to some extent to get some of those interesting colours. Often that is the only way you can force out recessive traits.
avatar
andoy
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Male
Number of posts : 916
Age : 50
Location : Harrow, NW London
My eBay : andoyolg
Species Kept : Japanese and Bobwhite
Registration date : 2008-03-13

View user profile http://andoy.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Ironsun on Fri May 16, 2008 1:47 pm

Hi,

Yeah, In that batch I got from him is a very unusall "grey Gold" Where are the gold has "gold feathers" this one I got has grey? I'm waiting to see if he puts any more on ebay, you get some very strange colours coming from his eggs, even though some are small and they at not very well packed,lol.

Derek.
avatar
Ironsun
Northern Bobwhite
Northern Bobwhite

Male
Number of posts : 725
Location : South Lakeland, Cumbria
My eBay : etoshastud
Registration date : 2007-07-26

View user profile http://www.quail-run.bravehost.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum