Manchuruan Yellow/Golden Vs Italian Golden

I'm confused...are these the same colour? I've found one website saying yes, and lots of papers that hint that they are...but i'm confused by the hatch rates people get from golden quail...

What ratio of golden chicks to normal chicks do you get in the average hatch?

ETA:
Must stop reading...confusion levels rising...pics of italian don't look like my birds...pics of manchurian don't look like my birds...

Sorry dont know

H-A

I'm pretty sure this was cleared up in another post months ago. But until the world gets together to give a colour a single name and stick to it, i'm sure this question will keep re-appearing

I think we've decided they're all the same, at least as far as what is available from ebay/UK breeders.

Trouble is, manchurian is supposed to be homozygous lethal, whereas the golden/italian we see in the UK is not!

Now you have got me totally .

H-A

Not sure where I lost you, apologies if this is patronising or not what you were confused about!

Most organisms have diploid genomes - this means we have two copies of each chromosome. Each chromosome has the "same" genes at the same position, but small mutations in each produce different effects (a different version of a gene is an allele). E.g. brown eyes vs blue eyes. If you have the same allele on each chromosome in the pair you are called "homozygous", if its a different allele then its "heterozygous".

Golden/Italian is a dominant mutation, you only need one copy of the gene to be a golden quail. If you look at scientific papers (and some books) they insist that the homozygous version of "Manchurian Golden" (two copies of the gene) means that the embryo won't develop. I couldn't find any scientific papers specifically referring to Italian Golden (hence the question).

We know that the golden/italian birds that most of us have are definitely not homozygous lethal - you don't notice any drop in fertility/hatchability breeding golden x golden. Harrie in particular proved this when her latest batch of golden x golden hatched all golden chicks (if they are heterozygous, you should get 1:4 chicks being normals).

I thought that was still a bit of point on contention, breeding gold with gold.

Is everyone sure that there is no lethal element to this combination.

H-A

Will need to get my Biology books out again.

I don't think you're the only one confussed H-A.

Actually Emma, if I remember correctly Harrie combined Gold x Normal and got all Gold chicks so her Gold parents were obviously Homozygotes (or homos as I like to call them).

I'm afraid it's all the Yanks fault. I swear they keep comming up with new names to flog old horses. I've read one site some time ago that described Manchurian Gold as a reddish-gold which leads me to believe it's actually not an individual genetic trait but a combination of known/existing traits. I've not seen any pictures of this colour, but I suspect it is similar in appearance to the one Suz posted last month...

https://coturnixcorneruk.forumotion.com/your-quails-f22/for-derek-example-of-light-gold-hen-t1089.htm

Bit difficult to determine without obtaining one of these birds and isolating the genetic factors. Best way is to breed against normal and back again to the original bird exhibiting the colour to see what comes out. Combinational factors will not breed true (i.e. the other factors will appear in isolation in some ofspring).

found these on US eBay:

Manchurian Gold
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Manchurian-golden-Coturnix-quail-hatching-eggs_W0QQitemZ200223513504QQihZ010QQcategoryZ46532QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ginger (which he also calls; Fawn, Orange, Cinnamon) -- but looks like a normal to me!
http://cgi.ebay.com/10-Ginger-Orange-Japanese-Coturnix-quail-hatching-eggs_W0QQitemZ200223513289QQihZ010QQcategoryZ46532QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Not that these listings clear anything up, but I find it interesting that he doesn't mention "plain" Gold (what is sold here as Italian). So it must be an American thing to call it "Manchurian".

I wonder if the myth about lethal gene might have something to do with the drop in fertility due to inbreeding more than anything else?

Hi Andoy,

In the second photo, these are the ones I call cinnamon. Even though I don't get that many of this colour, they've been around for years. I had some pre 1996. I've got two more now and they are females too. One was hatched from eggs I got from bathrooms.

Derek.

the golds were called manchurian when i had quail 15 years ago, its only now i`m going back into quail that they seem to be called italian.

they are are same colour bird as far as i can see,

the golden is refered to as manchurian in the `atlas of quails` book too

I have the Atlas of Quail book too, between that and talking to american breeders, I'm convinced gold, italians & manchurians Are all the same.

i thought so

A rose by any other name I guess.

that's quite interesting Derek, the 2nd eBay description on the listing mentions no black markings in the adults and a gingery down on the chicks. That describes the chicks I hatched from bathrooms67 (gingery colour where you would normally expect brown/black markings)

I don't think I hatched any cinnamon from the batch you sent me, but I got quite a few gingery and chocolate type hues from bathrooms67. Unfortunately quite a few of the chicks I hatched were deformed (one quite grotesquely bad beak and no eye lids and a few with funny shaped feet). So I'm guessing he must have inbred them to some extent to get some of those interesting colours. Often that is the only way you can force out recessive traits.

Hi,

Yeah, In that batch I got from him is a very unusall "grey Gold" Where are the gold has "gold feathers" this one I got has grey? I'm waiting to see if he puts any more on ebay, you get some very strange colours coming from his eggs, even though some are small and they at not very well packed,lol.

Derek.